Ron Reigns:
Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.
Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.
Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.
Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President, and Co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency- a phoenix crisis pregnancy center. As well as the Donna Kay Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a Bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a Master’s degree in education, with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Today we’re going to be talking about podcast confessions of an adoption agency director. I thought as we enter this new season of podcasts, I thought it would be a good time for a confessional.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When I am speaking with adoptive families, birth parents, adoptees, or anybody interested in adoption, what people are most interested in or fascinated by, is the inside scoop at our phoenix crisis pregnancy center. They want to know what happens behind the scenes, the magic formula, the stuff that nobody really wants to talk about, and feel like they have a real sense of understanding.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that is true in a lot of areas of life. I know that when one of my daughters is working at a new fast food restaurant or something, I always want to know, “What’s in the secret sauce?” Or, “Tell me the truth, is this in it or …” You know what I mean? You always want to be an insider.
Ron Reigns:
I agree. And I think that about every job. I think, “Oh, that would be interesting to learn more about that.” We lived in California for a while near Anaheim, and for a while Lisa wanted me to get a job at Disneyland. And then she started talking to people about it and they said, “No, you don’t want a job at Disneyland because it kills the magic. You’ve learned too much.” This is the opposite of that, you want to know how the donuts are made.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I do, I do. Especially the kinds that have the filling. Here is the raw and the behind-the-scenes information about our phoenix crisis pregnancy center.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I actually have no inhibitions about sharing this type of information, because as we dive into everything, you’re going to learn that as an agency, we’re very transparent. Transparency is the key to any adoption agency’s success. The more adoptive families and birth families can see, understand you are thereby eliminating the backstage, and the more safe and secure and reassured you can help people feel. Nobody, or almost nobody, including me, like surprises. Do you like surprises, Ron?
Ron Reigns:
It’s a mixed bag. I like some surprises, I don’t like all surprises. But yeah, I understand what you’re saying. You want to be prepared for whatever comes. And sometimes things come out of the woodwork that you’re like, “Wait, where’d that come from? I’m not ready for that”.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
One of the first questions that I often get asked about our phoenix crisis pregnancy center is, is domestic adoption risky? The bottom line is, yes, it is. It is just as risky as infertility or a traditional pregnancy. Risk, I think the word in and of itself is an all-encompassing word and there are varying degrees to it. Some adoptions may appear less risky or more risky at various stages in the adoption journey.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We’re going to talk a little bit about infertility in a little bit, but infertility is also risky, just like a normal traditional pregnancy can be risky. You can be pregnant with your biological child and as you’re moving through your pregnancy journey, there can be factors that increase your risk. And so is adoption any different than that? No.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But let’s talk about some of the risks that we may encounter. Sometimes adoptions at our phoenix crisis pregnancy center will start off or begin as, what we would consider, a lower-type risk adoption. But circumstances in the birth family’s lives may change, which may make their adoption plan less stable. For example, their financial situation may change into a positive direction. Family members may take issue with their adoption choice, or maybe they didn’t form as close of a bond with their adoptive family as they had expected to.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Other situations, where the birth parents had an adoption plan that we may have had initial concerns about as an agency, but then those risks slowly became eliminated as the journey went on, would include maybe child protective services removed some of the birth mother’s other children. Maybe the relationship between the birth mother and the birth father has been terminated. Or maybe be their situation financially took a turn for the worse.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Risks can ebb and flow at our phoenix crisis pregnancy center. I had mentioned that we were going to talk about infertility because a lot of times adoption is compared to infertility. When you cannot biologically have a child without external measures, your choices are adoption, infertility or choosing to live life without having children.
Ron Reigns:
Well, according to the American Pregnancy Association, the success rate depends on a number of factors, including reproductive history, maternal age, the cause of infertility, and lifestyle factors. It’s also important to understand that pregnancy rates are not the same as live birth rates. In the United States, the live birth rate for each IVF cycle started as approximately 41 to 43% of women under age 35, 33 to 36% for women 35 to 37, 23 to 27% for women ages 38 to 40, and only 13 to 18% for women over 40.
Ron Reigns:
And according to CCRM Fertility, the chances of pregnancy will depend on the age of the women’s eggs, and many of the factors particular to a couple. But on average, only 37% of assisted reproductive cycles for women under 35 results in live births, the chance of success decrease with age.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In looking at these numbers, the standard percentage for domestic adoption, the average they say across United States. And again, we’ve talked about before understanding that every agency or attorney will define their success rate by certain factors and you really want to get clarity on that. But that being said, the standard is 50%. Our phoenix crisis pregnancy center, Building Arizona Families, is between 70% and 80%, and so sometimes even higher. So if you look at it, is domestic adoption risky? Sure. But again, so are a lot of other apps.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
All right, going on. What situations make me nervous, as the adoption agency director, about an adoption being successful? Do I ever get a bit nervous? Absolutely. Some things that make me nervous in terms of adoptions having a happy ending, is when we find out that a birth parent has been dishonest or has not disclosed important information.
Ron Reigns:
Of course.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That obviously makes me question in my head how committed and serious she is towards her adoption process. When an adoptive family says things or acts in a way where the birth parents get offended, uncomfortable or upset, that also really concerns me. Because that, again, in my mind, is placing the adoption potentially in jeopardy.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When an adoptive family becomes entitled and demanding during the adoption journey, this mentality is actually translated and oftentimes picked up by the birth parents. And this does not result in a positive income. All birth parents are looking for four core things. They’re looking for respect, trust, love, and commitment. And I would say that those four things are universal for all of us, whether we’re a birth parent or not.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There was this one family that I will never forget. They had matched with a birth mother and a birth father at our phoenix crisis pregnancy center, and so the couple was together. And they went into the hospital with the birth parents. The baby was delivered and the birth parents started to struggle about their adoption choice. And so during the struggle they had asked the adoptive family to step out so they could have some time to think. And the adoptive family asked them, “Would you like us to go back to the hotel? Do you want us to stay close?” And the birth mom said, “I really don’t want you to leave the hospital. I just want some time.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so the adoptive family went outside the hospital door to her room and they sat down up against the wall. And the nurses would come in and out. Everybody knew at that point that the birth parents were really struggling. Our case workers gave the birth parents time to focus on and really decide what was best for them. And so everybody just gave them space.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
A lot of times, this is where adoptive families, with all due cause, really panic. And sometimes when they panic they say things or do things that don’t help the situation. Even against our advice, they still want to take it into their own hands and that’s where concerns develop. So this adoptive family remained very calm and would tell the nursing staff, “No, we don’t need anything. We’re fine.” Same with our staff, they were like, “No, we’re good. You guys just keep on going. We’re fine, we’re fine.” They waited out there for 12 hours Ron.
Ron Reigns:
Oh my God.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And again, their attitude was just as positive at hour 12 as it was an hour one. And-
Ron Reigns:
That is incredible.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah.
Ron Reigns:
They must have been supporting each other as well then in that. Because I’m sure each of them individually had times of weakness where they’re like, “We’ve got to go in there and do something.” And the other said, “No.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No, they didn’t appear to be. I mean-
Ron Reigns:
Really?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… they were very cohesive. This was their first child. They were a very cohesive married couple.
Ron Reigns:
Cool.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And yes, they were very supportive of each other. And what was so beautiful about it is when a couple takes that stand of, “We understand that this is hard. We understand that you’re struggling, and we support you even during your struggle and honor your choice.” At the end of the 12 hours, the birth parents called them back into the room and they had found peace in their adoption choice and their journey. And they moved on and continued, and the adoption went through without a hitch.
Ron Reigns:
They were ready.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They were. Had that not happened the way … Had they been knocking on the door, asking to see the baby, starting to really question everything, that vibe goes off. And nobody wants to be pressured, especially in an adoption situation because that’s where, if there’s coercion, it can be overturned and we don’t want any of that happening. They handled it beautifully. And that was a really hard 12 hours. That was really, really hard.
Ron Reigns:
I’m sure, yeah. I’m sure it was hard for everybody. Just pins and needles for everybody. Now, I imagine you tell that story to potential adoptive families on a regular basis.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.
Ron Reigns:
But I can’t imagine that … I mean, how do you impart that wisdom to somebody who just doesn’t have it? I mean-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think finding peace in a place where there is no peace, and at that moment there wasn’t for them. I think that’s where you have to dig deep inside yourself and find some either source of faith or find something that will just calm you down. I’ve seen people pull out essential oils and they’re smelling them, anything to just bring that anxiety down.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think though that by having a good attitude and saying, “No matter what, we’re going to support these birth parents. Even if they choose to parent, that’s their choice.” And so because they were so positive and so loving and so real and raw in their emotions, they had a great outcome.
Ron Reigns:
Wow.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And a lot of times you just need to have families settle down when there are those moments of uncertainty. And when you’re dealing with families that don’t handle crisis well, that don’t handle the surprises and the roller coaster well. They really need more time prior to the adoption plan or being matched or the baby being born, of really being able to settle themselves down. Because when you come in like a bull in a China shop it really off throws everything.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I would say, the best advice that I could give to adoptive families working with our phoenix crisis pregnancy center is really, before you begin your adoption journey, find a way to settle yourself down, find your center of peace. And again, some people find that in faith, some people find that meditating, some people find that in their spouse. And they’re able, like you said, to just really together connect and be able to be that stability for each other.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
One other thing is, is sometimes what scares me or makes me nervous or what I think about is birth parents, you’ve heard stories and read it on Google and seen it on Lifetime movies. Oh, the birth mother wasn’t honest, or the birth father wasn’t honest. Sometimes it’s the adoptive families.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And we’ve had situations where we’ve had to exit birth mothers, birth fathers, adoptive moms, adoptive fathers, out of our program because they weren’t honest. And rather than, as an agency, looking at stereotypes and stigmas, we look at the whole picture. We have had situations where applications were not filled out correctly by both sides. We’ve also had situations where they both were not forthright, both the adoptive families and the birth parents. It is startling to hear of it. Sometimes adoptive families are not honest in their home study or they’re not honest in their application.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so I think what I really want to get out there in terms of the behind-the-scenes is, you got to look at the whole picture. It’s not just the stereotype and the stigma of birth parents. Both adoptive parents and birth parents are equally nervous. That’s the one thing that people don’t realize. Birth parents are not as stigmatized or stereotyped as being nervous like the adoptive family is, but they are. They’re both nervous about being accepted by the opposite party, the commitment of the opposite party. If the birth mother is using drugs during her pregnancy, she may be very worried that something may be wrong with the baby. And is the adoptive family going to stay in the adoption and love the baby unconditionally, as if they were delivering their own child?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Funding, both sides worry about funding. The birth mother is worried that her funding is going to continue after the delivery for six weeks. And the family is sometimes worried because there are sometimes unexpected expenses. And so they worry about the funding, or maybe they’re using grants. Both sides are worried about the baby’s health, I would say equally.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And the committed adoptive parents, sometimes you see things that are just a light. You’re going through and you’re doing adoption after adoption. And sometimes there’ll be a note in the doctor’s medical records, it’ll say, “You know what? We are concerned. We need to do more tests.” And you have the families that panic and say, “We don’t know if we can proceed, depending on what the results are.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And then you have the other families that say, “This is our child, or will be our child. There are no guarantees in life. Even if this was our biological child, there’s no guarantees. We’re in. We love the birth mother, we love the baby. We’re here.” Those are the ones that send chills up your spine because those families, you can feel good about the adoption, no matter what the outcome.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Also, both sides are nervous about the post-adoption communication agreement. They want to make sure that it’s followed. If you are an adoptive family and you are doing an open adoption, you want that birth mother to be a part of your life and your child’s life. And the birth mother wants to make sure that you’re going to follow through as an adoptive parent on the post-adoption communication as well.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The next topic is one that is a little controversial and one that I have been looked at … I get that surprised look, when we talk about birth parents returning to our phoenix crisis pregnancy center. I am not of the mindset that it is celebratory when a birth parent returns to do a second adoption. I do feel very grateful that they chose our agency again. But our goal is when a birth mother has placed a baby for adoption, that she then leaves the agency in a better place than she came. And we want her to be successful in her own life and move on and accomplish great things.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When we find her coming back into the program, it means that she is still in a place where she’s choosing not to parent and she is pregnant again. And maybe this was an unplanned pregnancy again. So we, as a phoenix crisis pregnancy center will encourage and offer birth control to every birth mother before she leaves. The agency will actually pay for them to receive birth control if their insurance doesn’t cover it. We developed our aftercare program, the Donna Kay Evans Foundation, to further ensure that they are able to leave the program in a better place than when they came in.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But if we’ve taken these measures and they find themselves pregnant and are choosing to make another adoption plan, we are so elated and it is such a compliment that they’re choosing us again. That means that we did a good job the first time. And yes, we definitely try to keep the siblings together. So we always offer the adoptive family, if they’re able and willing, to be the adoptive family for this child as well. Again, assuming the adoptive family is ready and willing.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But overall, I really want to put it out there that yes, adoption agencies, it is a business, but first and foremost, it’s a social service agency. And we’re there to help women move out of the situation that they’re in and make their lives better. It’s not so that they will come back into another adoption, it’s so that they can be and achieve the very same dreams and goals that they’re choosing for their baby to receive. And I think that it’s really important to remember first and foremost, that as a nonprofit social service agency our goals are very different than a regular business. Our goals are the success of women. And we want them to succeed because that shows that we’re doing a great job.
Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local adoption agency and phoenix crisis pregnancy center available 24, seven by phone or text at six, two, three, six, nine, five, 41, 12. That’s six, two, three, six, nine, five, four, one, one, two. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.
Ron Reigns:
Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song, I Don’t Know, as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us, we’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmother matterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.
