Ron Raines:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Raines, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid — and that’s not fair.

Guest:
And I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.
Don’t have an abortion — give this child a chance.
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President, and Co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign.
I have a bachelor’s degree in Family Studies and Human Development.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

and a master’s degree in Education with an emphasis in School Counseling.
I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007.
I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Raines:
And I’m Ron Raines.
I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona.
Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
If you enjoy this podcast, make sure to rate and review.

Ron Raines:
us on whatever platform you use to listen to us, and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
Look for AZ Adopt Podcast.

Today on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, we’re talking with probably my favorite guest — I have to say that — it’s my wife, the lovely and talented Lisa, our attorney.

Ron Raines:
…and the attorney for BAF also. And today we’ll be talking about ICPCs, which are interstate compacts.
So that’s somebody who’s placing a baby, for instance, in Arizona, and the adoptive family is, say, from Kentucky.

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
Thank you for having me.

Ron Raines:
Absolutely.

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
Yes, so we are discussing the interstate—it’s actually called ICPC, which stands for Interstate Compact for the Placement of Children.
Now, that actually deals with not just adoption matters, but it deals with child custody matters as well—possibly dependencies—anything involving children where they may transport

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
from one state to another state.

The purpose and the policy behind the whole Interstate Compact, which is actually an agreement between all 50 states, is that each child requiring placement shall receive the maximum opportunity to be placed in a suitable environment with persons or institutions that have the appropriate qualifications and facilities to provide the necessary and desirable degree of care.

And what it does is promote full compliance with all states’ laws and any applicable requirements to provide the utmost protection for the child.

Certain terms that people don’t understand — one of them being

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
…have your sending agency, you have the receiving state, and then you have Interstate Compact administrators as well.

The sending state is the party or the state or officer that basically brings or causes the child to be sent into another state.

So, for instance, as an example in the adoption setting — which is essentially what we’re focusing on — when either my firm or the agency is representing a birth mother who has a child, and that birth mother matches with a family from another state who’s going to be eventually adopting the child, and that’s where the adoption is going to be finalized — obviously, that’s where the child is going to be living.

So when the family comes out, when the mother gives birth to get the child, obviously they go back to their home state. And so you’re transporting the child from Arizona

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
…to another state — and you cannot do that unless you’ve gotten approval from the Interstate Compact.

So Arizona would be the sending state, and either the agency, Building Arizona Families, when it’s an adoption situation, would be the sending agency.

In private placements, which is what I do, actually it’s the mother who is the sending party, who’s sending the child to another state.

But in any event, you have a sending agency or person. The receiving state obviously is the state where the child is going.

Placement means the arrangement for the care of the child. Then you’ve got your Interstate Compact Administrators in each state that oversee it all.

The Interstate Compact basically has a condition which says that no sending agency shall bring or cause to be sent or brought into any other party state any child for placement in a foster care or as a preliminary

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
…to a possible adoption unless the sending agency complies with each and every requirement set forth by the Compact — the Compact again being the agreement between all 50 states.

And so it’s—it’s taken very seriously.

There’s a penalty for what’s called illegal placement. And the penalty basically says that if you do send, bring, or cause to be sent into any receiving state a child in violation of the terms of the Compact, it constitutes a violation of laws respecting the placement of children in both the state that you’re sending the child from and the state that the child is going to be received in.

And such a violation may be punished or subjected to penalty in either jurisdiction. So it’s serious. You have to comply with it — there’s no getting around it.

Ron Raines:

Now this is, like you said, this is an agreement between all 50 states. However, the laws in different states are different. So are there just certain aspects that are a national thing and then some are a state-legislated kind of states’ rights issue?

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
They’re governed by what’s called Regulation 12, and so most of the requirements for the Interstate Compact for the Placement of Children are uniform straight across.

Now, there may be some additional documentation that some of the administrators may want in addition to the Regulation 12—not many of them, though.

For the most part, it’s uniform. And as you know, because you process these packages, we usually see the same documents go in them, which I can go over in a list of the documents as well.

Before I get into the list of documents, just to give an example of the procedure—so what happens is, and again referring back to an adoption situation…

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
So the mom delivers the child. The family comes out. What happens is the family is not allowed to leave the state of Arizona—or whatever state is the sending state—until the compact administrator from the sending state approves of the adoption package.

When they give their approval, the family can leave the sending state, but they cannot enter their own home state until that compact administrator has additionally looked at the package and given their approval to say, “Okay, you may enter back into your home state.”

So it’s a very strict process. You have to have the approval of both the sending state and the receiving state. And as you know, that can take some time. It can take from a matter of days to a matter of weeks, depending on whether you have all the necessary documentation—which we’ll go over briefly—that is required to go in the packages.

One nice thing I will bring up is that they recently—in 2013, and more states are joining it—implemented what’s called NEICE: N-E-I-C-E, which stands for the National Electronic Interstate Compact Enterprise.

And that’s a national electronic system for quickly and securely exchanging all data and documents that are required by the

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
…interstate compact. And the benefit of that is that obviously the work required and the time for states to exchange paperwork is significantly reduced.

And as you know—again, from doing this for so long—most of the states we deal with are in NEICE, which is wonderful now, because we used to have to print out those packages, which could be hundreds of pages.
We’d have to print out a whole package for the administrator from Arizona, two additional copies for the out-of-state administrator, an additional copy for the attorneys, and another for our firm.

And sometimes you’d have a thousand pages on some of those.

Guest:
Oh, easily.

Lisa:
Easily.
And you’d have to take the packages, and they’d have to go by FedEx, which I now consider snail mail, almost.

And the NEICE system is fantastic because everything’s electronic.
So what we do now is we email copies of all the documents, assemble them in a nice PDF, and submit them to the Arizona administrator via email. Then they enter it into the NEICE system, where the receiving state has access.

This has significantly sped up the time for processing, which is nice—because these families are out here and most of the time, they’re just staying in a hotel, waiting, waiting

Guest:
…for approval, right?

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
Yes. So essentially the government—at least in this instance—has finally caught up to, say, 2000 technology.

Guest:
Yeah.

Lisa:
Yes, which is extremely wonderful.

Guest:
Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa:
There are a lot of documents, obviously, as you know, that need to go into the packet.
In an adoption situation, the consents need to go in there.

Most states will want a counseling summary or at least want to make sure that the birth parent has been offered counseling.

They’re going to want newborn medical records.
Most of them want a discharge summary.
There’s a home study for the adoptive family—very detailed—which will also include all the background checks.

That will include:

• Central registry background checks
• Child abuse background checks
• State and local police background checks
• FBI background checks

So they’re going to want all that in there.

They’re going to want essentially all the supporting documentation for the home study, such as:

• Driver’s licenses
• Reference letters
• Tax returns (sometimes)

So that’s one of the biggest documents you include in there: the home study, and all the supporting documents that go with it.

Guest:
I’ve noticed, as I’m putting these all together, that there are certain states that the home study

Guest:
is a lot more in depth and even repetitive there.
And, you know, I’ll get home studies with two to three hundred pages from time to time.
Why the difference in states as far as the size of the home study?

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
So some of the administrators will allow—if the results of all the background checks are referenced in the written part of the home study—they may not require the actual hard copies of all the results and so forth with all the checks.

Some administrators want all the hard copy written results included in there.
And so that’s the difference a lot of times—it’s the amount of documentation—
where one administrator wants the actual supporting documents,
and another may be fine as long as the results are documented in the home study.

Guest:
Okay, so that can make one difference.

Lisa:
They also want an accounting of adoption fees and expenses.
They want to make sure that

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
Everything was done legally as far as payment of living expenses to birth parents,
as well as whether the agency or attorney’s fees were reasonable—so they will check those.

They want a social medical history of the birth parents included.
They want all the documents with regards to the potential fathers.
They want to find out who all has been named, and for each of those individuals—
if they haven’t been served yet or if they will be served—
they want to know what the plan is to terminate the parental rights.

Sometimes those rights are going to be terminated in the receiving state,
sometimes they’ll be terminated here in Arizona.

They want the family to sign particular at-risk acknowledgments.

Guest:
And what’s that?

Lisa:
An at-risk is basically that they know that until the rights have been terminated for the biological parents,
essentially the adoption is still at risk—until the child is free for placement for adoption.

Guest:
Okay.

Lisa:
And one of the things that you do have to put in there is, of course, in detail,
the termination plan—exactly how those rights will be terminated.

They want placement documents in there.
They want to see the power of attorney,
they want to see a placement agreement where the family is accepting

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
…placement of the child into their custody, with various conditions that the agencies may have.

You have to remember: in agency adoptions, the agency is actually the legal guardian of the child.
And they will remain the legal guardian until the adoption becomes final.

So they—most of the time—will have various terms in their placement agreements and in their powers of attorney.
For instance, the adoptive families may be able to make some standard medical decisions
while the child is in their custody.
But if there’s a major medical issue, then the agencies are going to want those families to check back with them—
because ultimately, they’re still the legal guardians until finalization.

Guest:
Okay, so when the adoption becomes final—when you say that, what does that mean?
Obviously, it’s not just after the consents are signed—it’s further along.
It has to be completely approved. What is the final step?

Lisa:
So the final step, after the Interstate Compact clearance—
once you get that clearance and the family goes home to their state,
the next step is generally terminating the rights of the biological mother
and any and all named biological fathers and any putative fathers, which are potential.

Guest:
…persons out there that may not have been named.

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
Right, which we’ve talked about in a past episode.

So, once those parental rights are terminated,
what’s also happening in the receiving state is that the family is having post-placement visits as well—
which, as you know, a post-placement agreement has to go in the ICPC packet too.
They want to make sure they know who’s supervising the placement,
because that placement must be supervised.

So what happens is the home study agency—the one that originally did the home study—
and just to recap quickly: a home study is the initial certification where every aspect of the family is looked into
by the adoption agency. They basically issue their approval saying the family is approved to adopt.

But it doesn’t stop there.
That same agency also has to supervise the placement to ensure it remains a good fit.
So, they’ll go into the family’s home, conduct interviews, and do in-home visits a certain number of times.

Those requirements are state-specific:
Some states may require two or three visits,
others might require monthly visits until the adoption is finalized.
It really varies across the board.

But regardless, you will have to have a certain number of post-placement visits.
In an agency setting, those visits are conducted and reviewed by the agency,
who, again, are the legal guardians of the child at that time.
They will continue reviewing those visits until the required number is met according to state law.

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
…law. They’ll review the post-placement visits,
and if everything looks good—if they agree it’s still a great placement—
then they will issue what’s called the agency consent to the adoption.

So, not only does the birth parent have to consent,
but the agency also has to eventually give their consent.

Once the agency consents and parental rights are terminated,
then you’re essentially free to finalize the adoption.

Now, finalization requirements vary from state to state.
Some states require a six-month waiting period,
others may allow finalization in three months.
It just depends on the laws of the adoptive family’s state.

But once all the post-placement requirements have been met,
the agency has submitted the necessary documents,
and the state law allows, then the family can proceed with finalization.

That’s when you receive what’s called an “Order of Adoption.”
That’s the final legal document stating the adoption is approved and complete.

Guest:
So once that happens, custody is officially transferred from the agency to the adoptive family?

Lisa:
Yes, exactly.
At that point, the agency’s role is complete,
and the adoptive family becomes the legal parent.

Guest:
Thank you so much! Is there anything else you’d want to highlight for our listeners—
especially for those thinking about adopting or placing a child in an interstate adoption?

Lisa:
I think one really important thing to remember is:
families need to be prepared for how long they might be out of state.

Sometimes it’s just a few days,
but sometimes it can be a couple of weeks.

And we haven’t mentioned this yet,
but another thing that could delay the process is if the baby is in the NICU.

Guest:
NICU—that’s the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit, right?

Lisa:
Exactly. And that’s a great point.
If the baby is in the NICU, the ICPC process may be delayed
because, in most cases, you can’t get all the medical records until discharge.

The Interstate Compact is really focused on receiving a discharge summary,
because most states want to ensure the baby is medically stable before placement proceeds.

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
…with the baby, and they’ll look at that discharge summary.

Another delay—
as you know—can be related to ICWA, the Indian Child Welfare Act.

Just to touch on that briefly:
if it’s a situation where there’s Native American heritage involved,
then the birth parents are required to go through an additional hearing.

And under federal law, that ICWA hearing cannot occur until at least 10 days after the child’s birth.
You also need to have the ICWA documents from that hearing included in your ICPC packet
before it can even be submitted.

So that’s another reason why there might be a delay.

Now, if the case is already known to fall under ICWA,
the adoptive parents will usually be notified in advance,
so they’ll know to expect the additional 10-day delay, if not more.

But sometimes, in hospital situations, this could come as an unforeseen development.

So if you’re adopting from another state,
for example, adopting from Arizona while living elsewhere,
you should take the approach of:

“Expect the worst, hope for the best.”

Guest:
That’s a really practical perspective.

Lisa:
Exactly. You could end up being there for just a few days,
or you might be there for a couple of weeks—maybe even longer.

Guest:
That’s good to know. And there’s one more thing that can slow things down—the holidays.

Lisa:
Yes, absolutely.
During the holidays, state offices often have limited staff or may even be closed.

While agencies like ours tend to work around the clock,
the state offices and courts may be shut down,
which can pause the ICPC process.

Guest:
And on top of that, it can also depend on the volume of placements happening at that time, right?

Lisa:
Right.
There are multiple attorneys and agencies from various states
that must comply with the Interstate Compact,
and if there’s a high volume of adoptions, that can cause backlogs.

In fact, right now—we’re dealing with five births in one week alone.

Lisa (Guest Attorney):
…from our side—that’s just from a combination of my firm and the agency.

If you add in other agencies,
they could get bombarded with maybe 10 or 15 placements at one time.

And that takes time too.
It’s just another unforeseen factor, and there’s nothing anyone can do about that.

(Ron Rains):
That’s why I’m glad you brought all this up—
different things to expect in case of a delay. So, thank you.

(Ron Rains):
Lisa, thank you so much for joining me.
I know you came a long way just to be part of this—
you walked all the way from the bedroom to my office!
I appreciate you taking that time.

Lisa:
No, I really do enjoy being on the show—and Kelly loves it when we do this, too.
But I would like to clarify one thing—
it’s actually my office.
I don’t want people thinking I just rolled out of bed to do this.
That room is my office!

(Ron Rains):
That’s right. She’s an attorney, and she works very hard.
I call it a bedroom because that’s how the house was set up, but that’s beside the point.

Thank you again!
We’ll have you back on soon, and we’ll talk about something else in the legal aspects of adoption.

Lisa:
I’m looking forward to that. Thank you, Ron, as always.

(Ron Rains):

If you’re pregnant and considering adoption,
we’re here for you and we understand what you’re going through.

We’ve helped hundreds of women place their babies for adoption, and we want to help you too.

Call or text our 24/7 Pregnancy Crisis Hotline:
623-695-4121

Or call our Toll-Free Number:
1-800-340-9665

We can make an immediate appointment with you,
get you to a safe place, provide food and clothing,
and help you start creating an Arizona adoption plan—
or just give you more information.

Visit our blog: azpregnancyhelp.com
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @AZAdoptPodcast

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform.

Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rorke-Scarry,
and edited by me, Ron Rains.

Thanks to Grapes for letting us use their song “I Don’t Know” as our theme.

Join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption.
For Kelly Rorke-Scarry, I’m Ron Rains—see you then!

 

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