Speaker 3:
Do what’s best for your kid and yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you won’t be able to care for that kid. And that’s not fair.

Speaker 4:
And I know my daughter would be well cared for with them.

Speaker 5:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 6:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Family’s adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:
This is our 100th episode and final episode of season one. So in honor of making it this far with ‘Birth Mother Matters in Adoption’, we thought it would be interesting to take a look back at some of our past episodes. The one topic that’s come up the most in these podcasts, other than, of course, the general topic of adoption, is abortion. And that subject was first broached on episode three of the show.

Ron Reigns:
Here we go. It might be controversial. But we’re going to broach the subject.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We’re going to go there.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. We’re doing it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We’re going to go there.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I will tell you upfront I have never lost an abortion debate ever.

Ron Reigns:
Ever?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Ever.

Ron Reigns:
Not with anybody?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Nobody.

Ron Reigns:
And you’ve been on TV about this.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I have been on TV.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I have been on TV, and you can actually go to our campaign’s website, which we’ll give you at the end of this podcast. And you can see it.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
As I was stating, I have never lost an abortion debate. And part of that is because I was born seven days prior to Roe v. Wade, becoming legal.

Ron Reigns:
And it’s made such a difference in your life-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I’m here.

Ron Reigns:
Obviously. Not being aborted, for instance-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
but also being adopted and knowing what that means to a human life.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I do. Absolutely. I don’t know whether or not my mother would’ve chosen abortion as a route to go again. She didn’t know that she was pregnant with me until three weeks before. But I think maybe that may have been a little bit of denial. And not sure, I mean, she was 15 when she became pregnant.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And had just turned 16 when she had me. And that’s a little bit of a funny story, actually that I will share in another podcast.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. I can’t wait.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. All right. So the ‘You Before Me’ campaign was developed because Busy Phillips had come up with a campaign called ‘You Know Me’, this campaign was to let women know that one out of four women, by the time they turned 45, have had an abortion. I couldn’t believe the numbers.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
One in four women. And so what she was doing, the campaign’s goal was to let women know, “Hey, you’re not alone. You know me, I’ve had one.” And I thought, wait a minute. I haven’t had one. I’ve known people that have had one, but it’s not something that people normally celebrate or it’s not something that they look at and they say, “Hey, I had a cheeseburger today. You know me.”

Ron Reigns:
Right, right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so I thought we’re desensitizing people to what abortion really is. And we’re not sensitizing people to what adoption is. And who’s the real hero here? It’s the birth mothers who are making that choice, who are making that sacrifice, who are living what other people are choosing not to. They’re taking the nine months, and they’re going through all of the weight gain and the hormone changes. And they’re feeling the baby kick inside. And they’re going through labor and delivery. And they’re making this unbelievable choice where we’ve got another person out there who’s rallying people to say, “Hey, you know me, this is what I did. I did the quick and easy fix.”

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And it’s not quick and it’s not easy. And many people who have had an abortion will say there are long-term life consequences of it.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely. Lasting impacts that just don’t go away when the baby goes away.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. You know, in the future, I want to have some guests on here that I know personally that have had an abortion. There’s a woman who I spoke with, and she had one about almost 30 years ago. And she said, it’s still something she thinks about every day. She said, it’s, she looks at her two sons and she thinks, is one missing? Should I have done something differently? Would they still be here if I hadn’t had an abortion? And so there’s so many questions that are left unanswered.

Ron Reigns:
As I mentioned, abortion is a recurring theme on this podcast. And probably the hardest episode so far for me to record was episode 16. When I talked about my own experience with abortion.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
How long after the abortion did you start to feel the effects?

Ron Reigns:
It certainly wasn’t immediate. I think, maybe a couple of years. And then I really started looking back on it and thinking, what have I done?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Was it before or after the birth of your son?

Ron Reigns:
It’s been so long ago. I’m going to say, honestly, it might have been when she was pregnant with my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That makes sense. That would be a huge trigger.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. And as I had said, she had gone through two abortions. So I guess at the time, I was so young and very naive. Didn’t realize the consequences, not just emotionally on me, that’s beside the point, but on what I, on what I had; I can’t even do this here. Hold on.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Just take your time.

Ron Reigns:
The consequences on the life that was never allowed to be.

Ron Reigns:
Because of the choice I had made.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You are so brave to talk about this because I believe that what you’re saying is saving lives.

Ron Reigns:
I hope so. I hope somebody will hear this and go wait, am I choosing the wrong thing here? Or how will this affect me when I’m 50?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You don’t have the ability, unfortunately, to go back and change the past.

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But you have the ability to talk to other birth fathers because men, in a lot of instances, would prefer to hear it from another man. And that’s what I’ve been told when I speak with birth fathers. And you have the platform and the opportunity to share because there may be birth fathers out there and they’re with their pregnant girlfriend, one nightstand, somebody, and they may think, “Well, abortion is a really quick fix to get out of this.” But there is unplanned pregnancy support in Arizona available to help pregnant woman have access to necessary resources.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s really something that we can just put behind us and move on.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And because you’re being courageous and you’re able to share your story, I really do believe that if there’s a heaven, your baby’s looking down, giving you the thumbs up.

Ron Reigns:
That one’s still hard for me to listen to. We also talked with a set of birth parents on episode 39. And their story was terrifying, breathtaking and powerful. All at the same time.

Speaker 8:
All I saw was money. I didn’t care about anything and nobody until that moment, me realizing that it was me, that I was the problem with the neighborhood. And that I was the problem with everybody’s family. And while all these kids are getting neglected, while all these kids were finally, the women are pregnant and they’re coming out and the babies are in drugs. They’re pretty much high. And I was the source of it. And I just couldn’t do it any more. I knew that if I didn’t break the cycle somewhere along the line, that I would be the source of making society so much worse. And it’s like, who am I to make the choices with everybody’s life? I’m nobody. And it’s just; in my mind, it’s just wrong in so many ways. Before I didn’t care, it didn’t mean nothing to me. If this girl was high, getting high while she was pregnant, doing heroin or smoking meth, I didn’t care as long as I got money, it meant nothing to me.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And you made a lot of money?

Speaker 8:
Oh yeah.

Speaker 9:
Yeah. He used to make a lot-

Speaker 8:
Yeah.

Speaker 9:
of money.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So what’s a lot of money? Like what? Like if you had to say.

Speaker 8:
$200,000 within a week.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So how did you actually, you can’t just stop or turn that off. Like you can’t. How did you do it? Did you go to rehab? Did you…?

Speaker 8:
I just stopped and turned it off all along. And I didn’t go anywhere.

Speaker 9:
It was pretty much my daughter being taken and stuff-

Speaker 8:
I didn’t go anywhere.

Speaker 9:
That changed a lot of his outlook on a lot of things. Because for months, he tried to get me to go to UMom and everything like that. And I was just stuck in the streets, pretty much. And even though I was taking care of my daughter she had everything she needed. She had all her clothes, she had food, every night, everything like that. She had a place to sleep. It was just, I was just consumed with the streets too at the same time.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In what way?

Speaker 8:
In every way. She like literally, if she seen somebody that was selling drugs and the affection felt like that was the person, that was that shining the most in the neighborhood, that’s who she liked to attract to.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The reason I’m asking you guys these questions is because I’m on the other side. So I’ve got to learn because I’m trying to help other people. And so if you don’t teach me, you’re not going to learn this in a book.

Speaker 8:
No, you can’t. It’s impossibility.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I know.

Speaker 8:
I call it the art of manipulation through heroin, especially when girls are on heroin. And people think that these girls are like hoping for me, but really they’re not. What I’m doing is I’m literally fronting them drugs here because I know they need it, and I’ll give them heroin upfront, and I’ll just keep giving it to them and keep giving it to them. And when they run up a bill, I make them go get it by any means necessary. That means that they got to go and post their ad on the internet and have to sell for this. That’s what they got to go do. And they go get my money for me. And because I’m really pimping them, it’s because they owe me money and I’m a drug dealer and they want more drugs from me.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So they’ll do anything?

Speaker 8:
So they go and they’ll go do anything whatever’s necessary to give me my money. Like I lived a really-really rough life. And the last thing I ever want for any of my kids is to live the life that I live. And I know that this is probably like, I can’t just go and just give my child to anybody and think that they’re going to live a good life. I can go somewhere like this and know for a fact that I could pick a family that, this is going to do the right thing. And I know for a fact that my child’s going to live a good life. I know they’re going to be loved. I know they’re going to be cared for. I know they’re going to be clothed. I know they’re going to be healthy. I know they’re going to get educated. I know they’re probably going to go to college.

Speaker 9:
My two kids that I gave up for adoption right now, one of them is in pageants and the other one, they want to put in pageants. My, the one I just had, they want to have her put in pageants too. Mmmmm, so.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You guys are amazing.

Speaker 8:
Thank you. I think you guys are amazing. You sit there and you work your whole life and make sure that these children have somewhere good to go and then make sure that the family that’s putting the child up is taken good care of. That’s a beautiful thing to me. I respect you guys in so many ways.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Thank you.

Ron Reigns:
If you haven’t listened to that episode, I encourage you to go back and listen to this interview in its entirety. Its episode 39. Adoption in the news has been another reappearing theme throughout the first season of ‘Birth Mother Matters in Adoption’. And one of the biggest adoption news stories in Arizona, was the case of Paul Peterson. And we first talked about it in episode 15, way back in October, 2019. The Maricopa County Assessor and adoption attorney who was arrested this past Tuesday, October 8th and indicted on 32 counts in Arizona, including conspiracy, fraudulent schemes and practices, theft and forgery. He’s facing at least 62 federal and state charges, including charges in Utah and Arkansas.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
What I find really interesting about this case is this has gone on for what appears to be a few years. And this is now just coming to light. Where I’m really excited to talk to you, Ron, about this is not only to dig into the material that has been released by different media sources, different areas such as court paperwork, other professionals’ opinions is really the present and future impact on adoptions. We, as adoption professionals, can support the adoption community and any potential backlash or myths or misunderstandings that may occur as a result of what Mr. Peterson alleged.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And now you take a very optimistic view. You don’t think that adoptions are going to decrease. And I’m kind of, of the same mind. And in a way, I think this may shine a light on the adoption industry to where people go. Adoption. I forgot about adoption.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
What we know so far from the information that we’ve gathered is investigators in Arizona found 28 women from the Marshall island gave birth in Phoenix area, hospitals between November 30th, 2015 and May 30th, 2019, according to the court documents. The women, as they waited as long as six months to deliver their children, lived in a MESA home owned by Peterson. Eight pregnant women were also found at the residence in MESA. So that’s the starting point. During this three year period, they were brought here from the Marshall Islands to have their babies to then have them adopted to families in the United States.

Ron Reigns:
Correct.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We have also learned, from the Department of public safety, that Mr. Peterson had been involved in adoptions of Marshallese babies since at least 2005.

Ron Reigns:
At least. Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s one thing with Building Arizona Families that I’ve always stated to all of our workers, as well as the families that adopt through us and our birth mothers is transparency is vital in adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, hopefully this will chase out some of the outliers and the bad elements. You know, the bad actors in this. Do you think that there are adoption attorneys and adoption agencies that, due to the light being shown on Peterson’s case, might start getting very nervous about their own practices?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
If they’re not on the up and up.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think adoptive families or families that are considering adoption don’t need to be scared. I think they need to look at it as a wake up call in the sense that do your education, do your research, check and see if the agency is licensed. See how long they’ve held their license, check and see if their license has ever been suspended. Check and see if they hold any other accreditations. Check and see if they’re registered with a Better Business Bureau. Check and see who their affiliates are. This is where, when you are buying a home or you are even buying a car, you do a lot of research.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s incomparable to adding a family member.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Exactly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s not at the same level, because you’re not just talking about a monetary expense. You’re talking about an emotional expense, a physical expense.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Because of the toll it’s going to take on you. I mean, adopting a child is going to affect every aspect of your life.

Ron Reigns:
Throughout season one of this podcast, we’ve tried to educate birth parents, adoptive families and adoptive children on the good, the bad and the ugly of adoption. We’ve tried to clear up some of the myths about adoption. We’ve also tried to highlight news events concerning adoption and abortion and keep the listeners informed. And help women who are experiencing unplanned pregnancy know their adoption choices in Arizona. And hopefully, we’ve even entertained somebody along the way. Thank you to all of the listeners for coming along on this ride through season one, and we hope to get even better in season two.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on ‘Birth Mother Matters in Adoption’. If you’re listening and you’re looking for pregnancy help in Arizona and want more information about adoption choices in Arizona, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24*7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112; that’s (623) 695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about AZ Pregnancy Help on their website www.azpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song ‘I Don’t Know’ as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website www.birthmothermatterspodcast.com, tune in next time on ‘Birth Mother Matters in Adoption’ for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.