Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where our AZ adoption agency delves into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.
Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.
Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.
Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families AZ adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a Bachelor’s degree in Family Studies and Human Development and a Master’s degree in Education with an emphasis in School Counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Today, we’re going to talk about the pressure of not adopting, and that may sound like a funny topic that we’re going to go into, but I want to use this time and this podcast to let people know that it’s okay to not pursue parenthood. And all through life, many times people are peer pressured for different reasons in their lives, and the different types of pressure will change with age group. For example, when you’re in high school there may be pressure to get good grades, go to college, maybe even experiment with drugs. When you’re in your twenties, the pressures change to getting a job with benefits. I know that was my mom’s biggest thing is do they have benefits? Do they have health benefits? Do they have dental benefits? It was a big deal back then to get a job that had benefits with it. Do you remember those days?
Ron Reigns:
No, my mom was just happy I got a job, so there was that. So, “Hey, Wendy’s, all right.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, other pressures that you might have experienced in your twenties is getting married, starting a family, which people usually associate with having children. The pressures in your twenties may further be pressed upon you into your thirties and then start to dwindle in your thirties, in your forties. I’m sorry, in your forties. The pressure categories change, and you may have a steady or stable career and so the pressures then become advancement in that career. And, are you going to get your PhD? Are you going to continue your education even further? And all along, you want to be saving for retirement, and the whole time you’re an adult, you’re worrying about your kids’ college education. You may not have even finished paying for yours, and you’re setting aside money to pay for your child’s.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So all this time, there’s these new pressures that are being pushed upon you. And as you head into your fifties, your friends, your loved ones, start becoming empty-nesters. And they’re looking at that, and they’re being faced with not having their children at home anymore. And so then it switches to are you going to start settling down? Are you going to start traveling? When are you going to retire? And so all through life, we hit these milestones of when you should be doing something, just to keep up with the Jones. Have you experienced this Ron?
Ron Reigns:
Well, right now I am actually. Yeah, of course I’ve experienced pressures and stuff throughout my life and peer pressure and all the other, “Okay, everybody’s doing this, so you should be doing this too.” But now I’ve kind of gotten to the point where I’m the one, I’m trying not to, but I’m actually causing the pressure on my son. Like, “Hmm, A lot of my friends are grandparents now.” So now the shoes on the other foot, and I kind of feel guilty about it because it’s a bummer being in the other side of it.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Sure. So I have the same experience with my oldest daughter, is 24. And I tease her as well and say, “When am I going to be a grandma? Because I don’t want to have any more children at this time in my life, but I’d like you to.”
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So I’ve been same thing. And she says that, no, she’s not going to do that. And she picks up her dog and says, “That’s the best you’re going to get mom.” And so, obviously, I support her decisions. But I do know what you mean, it’s very hard to not fall into that rhythm of, “Oh, you’re this age, this is what comes next.”
Ron Reigns:
Right. And, “I’m this age and this is what I deserve.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. And what’s so funny is I was one of those very old school minds of thought-thinking people that my parents never said to me, “Which, are you going to go to college?” It was always, “Which college are you going to one to go to?” So it was never an option. And looking at that now, I think it was good because I did go to college and I took that and that went. Again, I think it puts you in a mindset that prepares you to look at the next generation and say, “Yes, when am I going to be a grandparent? When is this going to happen or when is that going to happen?”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I think with our generation, things have started to do a shift because looking at where my high school classmates are in their lives, a lot of them never got married, a lot of them never had any children. And so it’s, I think that we’re starting to kind of deviate from what we have at one point considered the norm. The goal of this podcast is really just to kind of look at what society’s doing in terms of parenting. What are the reasons that people choose not to parent, and how does society look at that? And when adoption comes into play, it shouldn’t just be looked at as what some may consider a default, “Oh, if you have fertility problems, are you going to, you’re going to adopt them, right?” That’s the next, you know what I mean? That’s the next step.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I really thought that we could look at that today. So I believe that you shouldn’t be pressured into not having children or having children. My daughter would laugh if she heard me say this, because I joke with her all the time, as I’m sure your son would laugh at it too.
Ron Reigns:
Exactly.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Being pressured into adopting, fertility treatments, or even biologically having children when that’s not really what your life goal is, I think is really unfair. And children are a lifetime commitment, that will change your life forever in many, many good ways. And in some not-so-fun ways, too.
Ron Reigns:
There’s a couple.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There is a couple. Making that choice to be a parent is a wonderful gift, choice, and opportunity, but it has to be one that you want. It has to be one that I was somebody who wanted to be a mom from probably 10 years old. One of my daughters just turned 18 two days ago, and she wants to be a mom. Not that she’s going to be a teen mom, she’s going to college and all that. But she talks about it all the time.
Ron Reigns:
Right. That’s kind of a future goal for her, right?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Oh yeah, absolutely. So when somebody is trying to pressure somebody else into having a baby ,being told, “When you see your baby, you’re going to fall in love with your baby. I felt the same way before I became a mom and I wound up loving it.” And then you hear the “Well, your biological clock is ticking. You know, it’s now or never. Like you don’t want to be the oldest parent at the soccer game. You know, if you’re going to do this, you need to jump on the train.” But my advice is don’t succumb to pressure. You, and if you’re married, your partner knows what’s best for you and them. Working in the adoption field, I get asked constantly, “Have you adopted?” I get asked this, especially because we have seven children.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
As a result of a blended family. So when I say “No.” Their first question is, “Why not?” And it’s almost like I can predict what they’re going to say to me. And I feel like I should just get a tee shirt and just point.
Ron Reigns:
Right? You’ve had the conversation enough where it’s going every time.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So much that I can just go into the rat maze, you know what I mean? And just not even think about what I’m saying, I know exactly what the questions. For us, seven’s enough. Our oldest is 24, living on her own, and we still have the other six children in house. and I still get asked the question, “Well have you considered adopting?” And I usually answer with momentarily, when we see the babies of course they’re darling and beautiful, but our youngest is nine. And to reset the clock and start all over, we would be the oldest at the soccer game for that child. And not that that’s a bad thing but-
Ron Reigns:
No, but all your kids’ friends are going to say, “Oh, your grandma and grandpa are cool.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. And actually, when I had my nine year old, they thought that my 24 year old was the mom and I oftentimes ha could tell that they were trying to figure out who was mom. And I would always Jump in and say, “Oh no, no, no, this is his sister. This is not mom.” But yeah. So I think that it’s enough. So, it wasn’t that I ever made the decision not to adopt. I just never made the decision to adopt. And yes, I could have many, many times. I was never really for or against it for myself, but I’ve had four biological children. My husband has three biological children. Again, we blended them, and we have four teenagers in high school right now. The thought that adding to our chaos is crazy.
Ron Reigns:
Right. And not to mention with your excessively busy work schedule, also doing this podcast takes time out of your life too. So yeah, a lot’s going on.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
A lot is going on. What about you guys? Did you and Lisa ever think about adopting?
Ron Reigns:
We had talked about it and it wasn’t, it just was never the right time, for instance. And especially early in our marriage, she was still of going to school. Then she ended up going to law school, and so the schooling took a big chunk of time, not to mention both of us working. And then, actually, she had gotten pregnant, and we had a miscarriage, and I think we really both seriously thought about it at that time, but again, still just not right for timing. And then we just started thinking we’re getting a little old. It’s much the same as yours. It’s not that we were against it or for it one way or another necessarily. It just never was the right time or the right circumstances for us. But yeah, we had talked early on about it.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Do you ever look back with regrets of not adopting?
Ron Reigns:
Maybe, but again, we were both ensconced in careers and we just didn’t know if we would, I mean, and then yeah, the miscarriage was really hard on both of us, especially her. But yeah, we both suffered from that and it just kind of, and she loves her dogs, I guess. So there’s that she treats them better than she treats me, which is good.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
She dresses them in dog clothes, and they’re beautiful.
Ron Reigns:
She spends more money on their wardrobe than on mine.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well, so she’s a great mommy.
Ron Reigns:
Right? Just not of children, just dogs, that’s all. But yeah, now it’s definitely too late. Do I regret not pursuing it a little closer? Maybe, to some degree, sure. But not like, “Oh, I wish I could redo everything.” You just, I guess, move on and try not to look back with all the regret, I’ve got enough of them on my own.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Do you think the regret is more, what could Lisa and I have done together parenting? And having shared that experience or do you think it is maybe one of the common fears of, “Well, who’s going to take care of us when we’re older?” I mean, you have John from your first marriage. But who’s going to, who are we going to leave all this to? Who are we going to pass the torch to? Is it that, or?
Ron Reigns:
I think it’s more the first. Just the idea of what Lisa and I could have done as a co-parenting unit and being parents that are evenly yoked. You know what I mean? Whereas me and my former wife weren’t exactly on the same terms as far as how we wanted to raise John and he turned out wonderfully. I give her a lot of credit and try and take a little credit myself because he’s a fantastic kid, but it does make you wonder what we could have done with another child. And yeah, we miss a little of that too, and then for John to have a little brother or sister on this side would’ve been kind of cool too.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. Well again, the offer is always extended, if you ever need to borrow a niece or nephew, we’re happy to send one or two or three, four, five, six, you can pick the gender, you can pick the age.
Ron Reigns:
I can take everybody out of your household all at once. And yeah, okay.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Absolutely. So it’s, and I would say that at this time, I don’t have any regrets not adopting. Will that change in the future? I don’t know. Right now, if I ever started to even consider adopting, then a child’s face is in mine asking me what’s for dinner or can I help with this school assignment. Or can they please go, not during the COVID time, but to a friend’s house or what have you. So I don’t even really have a moment to really sit and think about it.
Ron Reigns:
Give it that much thought.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I will say that when we’ve had babies before, as they’re waiting for their adoptive families to pick them up, there have been moments where I will look down at the baby and think “With one more, it’s a little one.”
Ron Reigns:
How hard could it be to have eight? Dick Van Patten could do it. That’s a reference that no one will get.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So it is one of those things that you always wonder. I do believe that not everybody was meant to be a parent. I think that some people have very high career goals, and sometimes those goals will monopolize every moment of your time. And that won’t allow you to be the parent that you want to be and that your child deserves. And others may have dreams of exotic and frequent travel. Others may just want to focus on being married or single, having a clean house. That would be something.
Ron Reigns:
Do you remember that at all?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No. Or maybe they really don’t like kids. I’ve had friends that have confided in me, “I really don’t like children. I love my own. but I don’t anybody else’s.” And so they were able to find that with their child, but they really just didn’t like children.
Ron Reigns:
Because some people just don’t, and some people aren’t natural parents.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s funny to me because I’m still a licensed and certified school counselor. And when my son was in kindergarten, my husband and I would go and volunteer on Halloween day. Because we wanted to help him get in his costume and then they’d do a little parade and handout candy. And my husband, like I said was the youngest of six, he’s used to being around tons and tons of kids. He coaches my son’s basketball team and so forth. And as we’re walking into the kindergarten room, he looks odd. He has this weird look on his face and he’s sweating. And when I asked him, I’m like, “What’s wrong?” And he’s like, “This gives me such anxiety.” And I’m looking at him and I said, “What is?” And he goes, “Look at all the kids.” They have snot running down their face, they’re everywhere. It was a kindergarten classroom with a party, it was chaotic.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And with me, I am so used to kids that doesn’t, I think my blood pressure probably dropped, you know what I mean? It was nothing.
Ron Reigns:
Like a natural state.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
He said it was just creating significant anxiety, having all of these children running around. I’m trying to help the teacher find the children’s costumes and then have them go to the restroom and change. And then so I’m jumping in, and he’s looking like he should just be sitting in the chair rocking at this point because he’s very nervous and uncomfortable. And then I watch a child walk up and plant his shoe right on his lap and tell him to tie his shoe. And if you’ve met my husband, you know that out of his mouth, he wants to say, “That’s not the way that you would ask. You would say could you please tie my shoe?” but I’m looking over to him, and I’m smiling like “Just tie his shoe.”
Ron Reigns:
Just do it and get it over with, come on.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
He’s tying the shoe and it was just funny to me that he’s so good with our kids and he is so good with kids in general, but that really creates anxiety within him being in a kindergarten classroom.
Ron Reigns:
I think that’s a big thing of it. It’s all a bunch of five and six-year-olds, and it’s 30 of them or whatever, you know what I’m saying? That’s just a lot of kids, is what that is. And all very young. And at that age where they’re not super hygenic and just… Yeah, I see his anxiety. I’ve been to Peter Piper Pizza when it’s been like that. And it’s just like, “Okay, I’ll sit in the corner. I’ll talk to somebody over here. And you guys do your thing. I won’t interrupt you, don’t interrupt me.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I have to say to tag onto that, my adoptive parents, I did a lot of McDonald’s birthday parties for my kids and Peter Piper as they were younger. And when you go into McDonald’s, you know how it’s kind of glassed in like the play place? My parents would always be outside in the main section because it was so loud, and they had just adopted two children. And so it was really overwhelming to have kids running everywhere, whereas I’m just doling out Happy Meals and making sure everybody’s good.
Ron Reigns:
Everybody’s got three balloons and whatever it is. Right?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so, anyway, I thought that was funny, but so it’s okay if you don’t like children, it’s not for everybody. Or you can be anxious in the middle of a room of 30 kindergartners and yet still have seven children of your own.
Ron Reigns:
And be amazing as a father, right? Or a mother. Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So in talking with birth mothers who have gotten pregnant and decided that they’re going to place their child for adoption, some of their reasons are: this isn’t the right time in their life, they want to achieve stability in their life before they have a child. Some of them have confided in me: I never wanted to be a mom. I have a good mom growing up and I just, I just don’t know how to do it and I just don’t want to. Other moms have come in and said, “I would love to be a parent, but I know that I can’t do it. I know that I am too selfish.” And that sounds really, really bad, but it’s not, and they can own it and they can accept that. And they said, “I just, I want to go out at night. I want to go to parties. I want to have fun. I want to live my own life and I’m not ready to give that all up and, and become a mom that this child deserves.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I think that is such a selfless act. If that’s who you are inside, then embrace it. And don’t be ashamed of it, and know that you’re still doing something amazing. And so that’s something that I hear from them. Sometimes the reasons that birth parents choose not to parent are very reflective of why non birth parents also choose not to have children. They may want to achieve that career marker where they’re at the top of their career, climb that ladder, or maybe after having one child, they think it’s too much. I will say that having one child and then having another and then another, and then another, going from two to three is the marker.
Ron Reigns:
Oh, that’s the one?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s it, right there.
Ron Reigns:
Three to four, four to five, five to six and six to seven aren’t that big of a deal? No big jump, it’s that two to three.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You’re out of hands.
Ron Reigns:
Okay, fair enough.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When you’re walking the street, you’re out of hands. And I always thought that God should give you one more hand and arm for each child that you have over two. So, because you know what, if you don’t have a child that is old enough and trustworthy enough to hold on to one of the children, it’s like… So you’ve got to really pre-think out more than you would normally have to, because again, you only have two hands.
Ron Reigns:
Right, and that just gave me a completely different image in my head of Octomom.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. She should have at least eight hands and arms. Yeah. I don’t know how that’s where, like I said, it becomes challenging and you have to really prethink everything. Just to make sure that when you are by yourself with your kids at the grocery store, that everybody is safe and you’re accountable for everybody and it’s yeah. And then after that, you’re already outnumbered significantly. And so I guess one more really wouldn’t matter then Ron, I guess maybe it wouldn’t matter.
Ron Reigns:
Go ahead, then.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah, no. No, just kidding. All right, so six terrible reasons for anybody who’s on the fence to have a child really would be in my opinion, according to Psychology Today, which was posted on December 1st, 2015. Just to have somebody who loves you, sometimes people want to have a child because they want that unconditional love. Puppies can give you unconditional love. And because somebody expects you to. Trying to keep up with the Jones’s, follow the markers as they were set a long time ago. That’s not the reason. To fit in, if you’re seeing all your friends having kids and you really don’t want to be a mom. Again, that’s not a reason either. To give your life purpose, you already have purpose, and you’ll find that within yourself. Having a child to give you purpose isn’t a reason to have a child. To establish your legacy, carry on the family name. Again, that’s not a reason to have a child. And sometimes people will have a child to keep your marriage together. And again, that has never really proven to be effective, especially for happiness.
Ron Reigns:
Ever.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right.
Ron Reigns:
I don’t think, there’s probably not even one example of, “Hey, we had a kid, everything turned out great”, you know?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. That being said, we both work in adoptions. We love to help create families. And so we’re not trying to tell anybody not to have a child. Obviously, if you want to have a child, we want to be the ones to help you, but we don’t want you to feel like you have to have a child. Sometimes we’ll get couples that come into the programs and they want to adopt a child, or whether the wife wants to adopt a child. And the husband is being strung along for the ride and that is why the state mandates that you do two separate interviews. Now again, you really have to kind of dig deep because he doesn’t want to go do his private interview and then have his wife find out that he just ratted her out. And she’s going to know that they’re not going to be adopting because he opened his mouth.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But I think it’s really important to understand that we want to help those that want to be parents. If you think you shouldn’t be a parent and you don’t want to be a parent, then don’t be. Then don’t be, then live your life the way that you want to live it. In working in the school systems, in the adoption world, people who work with children all day, don’t always choose to be parents. I knew a lot of people who did not have children who worked in the school system and in the adoption field. But the adoption question, if you work in the adoption field, you still get it a lot. Now, I will say within our AZ adoption agency , the majority, and I mean, vast majority, if not all, of the people who have adopted, and we have a lot of people who have adopted, adopted prior to working for us.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So they did their adoption, they loved the adoption experience. They loved the whole culture of adoption and then came to work in the profession. It wasn’t the reverse. I will get phone calls sometimes and people will say, “Well, you know what children do you have available?” As if it’s like the cabbage patch. Well, I’ve got one with red hair and blue eyes, and then I’ve got another where… It doesn’t work that way. There’s not, behind us there’s not a room full of children with their hands up. It’s not like that. I mean, in the international, they have orphanages and we have the foster care system here in the United States. And then we have the birth moms who are pregnant and delivering, but it’s not as if you can run in the back room and pull out what somebody is looking for.
Ron Reigns:
Right, I want the one with the red hair and the mustache and right. Not a lot of babies have mustaches though.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s not like, you’re just going to, it’s not like you’re just going to pick up one on the way home and say, “You know what, I’m going to, we’re going to do this. I stopped at adoption agency on the way home picked up a kid, paid.” So it’s not, that’s not something. And so to squash any and all of those thoughts out there that are, that if you work in adoption field that one day you may just come home with me one, it doesn’t work.
Ron Reigns:
Right. No, it’s an entire process, for sure.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes, it is an entire process and a little bit on the funny side that people would sometimes maybe think that it was just something that you would just bring home. Like somebody having puppies in the Walmart parking lot, and you swing by, and they’re cute, and they’re popping out of a box, and so you swing by and make that decision in the fleeting moment. And then you know have-
Ron Reigns:
Yeah, this isn’t like, I mean, we’ve gone just goofing around, looking at co and then come home with a car. You don’t do that with adoption. It’s not like a “Oh hey, it’s a Saturday afternoon. We got nothing to do. Let’s stop in and look.” Yeah, it’s-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That impulse. We actually did that with my daughter’s cat. We had, she was struggling one day and she had been wanting a cat for a long time. And Adam came to me and said, “Hey, wouldn’t it be fun to go get her a cat?” And I said, “Yes.” And so I looked on Craigslist, and I thought, “Let’s just go over and look.” We were going to go to the gym, we’ll just go look at a cat instead, you know?
Ron Reigns:
There you go, you got a cat.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So I think that the takeaway from this podcast is really focus on the reasons you want to be a parent. And if that’s what you want, then adoption agencies and fertility doctors are there to help you if you can’t conceive a child on your own. Or maybe you’re just choosing to adopt, maybe that’s something that’s on your heart and you just want to go through an adoption experience. If that is, that’s what we’re here for. But we don’t want you to feel pressured or railroaded into doing something that you may not want to do.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so maybe before you begin an adoption plan go down the fertility road, or even try to have a baby, maybe really think about what your reasons are for wanting to be a mom and looking at your life. And if it’s a workable connection between what you want, what your life is providing, and where you are in your life, and see. And if it is, then by all means, congratulations, move ahead. But if not, that’s okay too. And there are a lot of happy people out there that chose not to have children. And there’s a lot of happy people that chose to have children. So, I think adoption just offers a win-win situation.
Ron Reigns:
According to an article from USA Today published on March 29th, 2019. “It’s just not for me. Why a growing number of women are saying no to parenthood.” America’s fertility rate steadily declined between 2014 and 2017. And 2017 marked the lowest rate in over 30 years with 60.3 births per 1000 women aged 15 to 44. In a 2018 poll of nearly 2000 people ages 20 to 45, 36% of survey respondents who did not want children or were not sure about becoming parents said they wanted more leisure time. 34% said they haven’t found a partner to raise children with. And 31% say they can’t afford childcare. Women are choosing higher education and career opportunities in the face of the high costs of raising a child.
Ron Reigns:
Many women who pursue higher education do have children, though, and at increasing rates. Between 1994 and 2014 the percentage of women with a PhD aged 40 to 44, who had ever given birth increased from 65% to 80%, but overall trends still point to American women having fewer children later in life with nearly 500,000 fewer babies born in 2017 than in 2007. The cost of raising a child is an estimated $233,610, excluding college tuition, according to a 2018 estimate from the Department of Agriculture.
Ron Reigns:
That being said 10 major reasons people decide to adopt according to an article posted at rainbowkids.com: to overcome infertility, to protect your health, because you love caring for children, to balance population growth, to choose the sex of your child, to avoid passing down genetic disorders and diseases, to help a child in need, to avoid pregnancy complications, and of course, to become parents.
Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local AZ adoption agency and is available 24/7 by phone or text at (623)-695-4112. That’s (623)-695-4112.
Ron Reigns:
We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about our AZ adoption agency Building Arizona Families on their website www.azpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song “I don’t know” as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.
