Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
“Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid. And that’s not fair.”
Speaker 3:
“And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.”
Speaker 4:
“Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.”
Speaker 5:
“All I could think about was needing to save my son.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in Family Studies in Human Development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in this field navigating both successful adoptions and adoption disruptions for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns:
I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Today’s podcast, we are going to revisit Becky, our adoptive family, case manager. She is the supervisor of all of the adoptive family case managers. She is also the hospital supervisor over all the case managers, both birth mother case managers and adoptive family case managers. So with no further ado, let’s bring Becky on. One thing that, that I have found in regard to adoption disruptions that I would really like our listeners to understand and, and learn from is after the family gets the initial shock from the and they go through the stages of grief and they hit the anger stage. And then they start wanting to, you know, they have lots of questions and they, they want to, you know, play the blame game sometimes. And they want to really focus on, you know, what happened and then comes the financial issue. And every family has a story as to, you know, they need to deviate from the contract, which we can’t do, but they have a special story and, and they, they need to be heard. What do you think drives that?
Becky:
I think, I mean during the adoption disruptions, you’re not only losing emotionally, but yes, you are losing, losing financially. And I do think it, it is definitely just part of that grieving process, that loss. So when you’re emotionally at your lowest with that grieving of that loss, then, then there’s that blow of the financial loss. And, and unfortunately we, as an agency were not able to do anything differently, but just trying to say, okay, what can we do to help offer support for you? Can we offer here’s financial resources? And we are willing, you know, if we can help with filling out information for a grant, what can we help advise you on for grants and offering that to families through the process so that they can say, okay, I have lost financially, but they’re offering to help me with financial resources. So being able to say, here’s a list of grants, or, you know, I’ve had families who have had great success at receiving grants from this company or this company, or have you reached out to your church? Have you reached out to your company, maybe thinking outside of the box to replenish their adoption funds,
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Looking at alternative measures? I think that’s a perfect response. Is there for a family that is, is headed towards what we believe is going to be an adoption disruption. How do you prepare them for adoption disruptions?
Becky:
That is, that is very difficult. I try to pride myself in being as open and honest with adoptive parents, as I possibly can. In fact, usually, the first phone call, all that I will make with them and I’m telling them and talking to them about the match that they’ve just entered into with a birth mom is I tell them I’m going to be open and honest. If I have concerns throughout the process or there are red flags, I’m going to let you know. I hope that I don’t ever have those, but I want to be transparent and let you know if I have a red flag or if there are concerns that I would rather a family be aware of the red flags that we have instead of being blindsided in the end and try to assure the families that listen, this is a red flag, but that does not mean that we’re headed towards an adoption disruption.
Becky:
This is just a typical red flag. So let’s do what we can. Let’s build a relationship with the birth mom, if that, if we feel that that might be the one thing that will help, we will up the case management involvement with the birth mother. If, if we think that may help. What can we do to, to alleviate some of the issues that are coming around these concerns, but being open and honest with them, I think is my, I know that’s my approach. And that’s what I push with our adoptive parent team is just being open and honest with them so that they can start expressing their feelings and we can start working through that in case those red flags or those concerns end up in an adoption disruption.
Ron Reigns:
We’ve talked about red flags a lot in the past, and we’ve gone over them, but it never hurts to kind of re-identify these for people who are looking to adopt so that they know what some of them are. Can you list some of the red flags that you’ve seen in the past that have led to the adoption disruptions?
Becky:
I, I think when a birth mother, our biggest one I would say is if the birth mother does not want to remain in contact with her case management or the agency through it, I think that would be one of our biggest red flags, or she does not want to disclose information to us along the way. Those are, those are things that I would call a family and just say, you know, if we’re doing an update, you know, she’s not communicating, she’s not staying in communication with her case manager or, you know, she’s not communicating with us about prenatal care. Those would be red flags that I would call and when was giving an update to a family, I would say, listen, this is a red flag. And it makes me have concerns.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So to kind of wrap this this up, I have said from day one of, you know, helping start the agency that even going through an adoption disruption, it is still part of an adoptive family’s journey. It is obviously a low rather than a high, but at the end of their adoption journey, I believe they will have a child that they are meant to have. Have you ever had somebody come back and say anything different?
Becky:
No. Nope. I’ve had many families and I have felt this myself. I have had families who have had an adoption disruption and they were back in it and they matched and without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, I, everything in me I’m like, this was definitely, this was what was meant to be this right here is their child. And, and having that feeling and even the families just saying, you know what, the other one, it just didn’t feel right. This just, this, this is what felt perfect. This was it. And having that positive outcome, it’s an amazing celebration that we get to have with them. And, and knowing that they were matched with the situation and they brought home the baby, that was meant to be theirs from the very beginning.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes, that is, I know the greatest feeling for an adoptive family case manager, when a family has had a disruption and they receive a placement and the papers are signed. I know that is the greatest exhale.
Becky:
Yes. And we all celebrate. I mean, we’ve, we’ve had it to where, you know, where a birth mom, case manager worked with a family and they had a disruption, even though she was working with the birth mother, but then when the family came back around and they, and this has happened more than once where there’s two or three of us that show up with the family of the team, just because we, you know, just celebrating that and the excitement of them having that placement, we get very personally involved with our cases. So sometimes it’s a whole, whole party of us all showing up.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I was going to say, you need closure as much as they do. I get that.
Ron Reigns:
That’s a great way to kind, going to wrap it up because it gives it a positive note. It’s a tough subject and it is like we said, going through that grief process. So that’s, you know, when you see the other side and there is a match, that’s a great way to finish this off.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. Thank you, Becky, do you have anything that you’d like to say to the listeners?
Becky:
I think just, you know, just remembering you, if you end up in a situation where there’s an adoption disruption, allow yourself to go through the steps of grief, make some time for you and your spouse, just to have some time together, to work through that, keep busy. Don’t just sit and dwell on that. Seek counsel, seek advice from friends, and some counselors, and stay hopeful. Don’t give up, keep your journey going because your baby is out there.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well said, thank you so much for joining us, Becky. And I know you’ve got a busy rest of your day, so we won’t keep you.
Becky:
Thank you.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that was a great conversation we had with Becky. I think it was so refreshing to hear the positives about disruptions. And I’m sure that families listening that have experienced a disruption or maybe headed towards experiencing a disruption, or just know somebody that has may find some, some peace and some hope after listening to what she has to say because she is in the front lines and has made those calls. And I can tell you, Ron, after making those calls myself for years and years in the past and, and every now and then I, I jump in and help as well. There is nothing worse in the adoption world than making, making that phone call.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It is the feeling of absolutely destroying someone’s dream. And you very much feel like that surgeon that has to walk out after surgery and take off your mask and deliver the bad news. That’s the feeling that I can imagine that they would have just that it didn’t go well and it didn’t work. And this didn’t have the outcome that we so wanted it to have. And I think that when adoptive families go through those stages of grief and, they start pointing blame, and yes, Becky has incredibly broad shoulders. It still does hurt to some degree when the finger is pointed at you. Because as an agency, we do everything we can to facilitate the adoption process with the hope and the intention and every ounce of energy into making this successful. But as you can understand, not every adoption is meant to go through and that’s out of our control.
Ron Reigns:
And I think that this podcast in general, and this one in particular is very good for anybody who’s considering adoption or anybody who’s gone through an adoption disruption because it lets, you know, Hey, this isn’t exclusive to me, this isn’t a burden that I have to carry alone. First of all, the agency is there for you. And second of all, there have been so many before you who have gone through this hurt and this grief and it, I think helps to let them know they are not alone. And, and there are others who’ve been through this exact situation.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You know, and to point out, you know, we have spent a lot of time in the last month really talking about this topic. And one of the reasons I think it’s so important to make sure that we kind of delve into this is when Adam and I have traveled all over the United States and we host classes about families that are considering coming into our adoption program. We will go through what the program looks like, explain everything and then hands shoot up. And usually the most questions are regarding what happens if the birth mom changes her mind? What happens? What happens to us? What happens to the finances? What happens to us being able to try to pursue another adoption? Everything is [inaudible 00:13:49] . You know, those are, I would say 60 to 70% of the questions that we are asked is what happens if this goes, goes south?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I think that the fact that we are going to those places that, you know, agencies don’t like talking about, because it’s like going, it’s like talking with a doctor and saying, okay, if I have this surgery, what is the worst outcome? And focusing on the worst outcome whereas the majority of the adoptions that we do, the vast majority are positive and have a great outcome. You know, our agency has this year, we’ve had right around an 80% success rate.
Ron Reigns:
That’s amazing.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
adoptions, which is amazing. Yeah. Especially considering the national average is 50. And so knowing that, that doesn’t take away the pain from that 20% of families that have, have had to experience this, but I really hope that it sheds hope and that it, it maybe allows for some grace as well.
Ron Reigns:
And I think it’s important to go into something like this with your eyes open, knowing that, okay, obviously we know the outcome we want, but if it doesn’t, it’s better to be prepared and know what you could be facing. Anytime you go in for surgery, they say this is a minor surgery, but there’s always a chance that it doesn’t go the way we want it to. And I would rather be prepared for something like that than just go in knowing the positive side. And so I think it is important to talk about all this
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
One thing I have found in, in talking with the adoptive families that are considering adoption is numbers. They, they really look at numbers, you know, how many places, how many don’t place, you know, they, they, it’s a numbers game. And the way that I try to explain it is prior to living in Arizona, when you see on the forecast, you know, there is a 20% chance of rain, most people won’t grab an umbrella before they walk out the door and Arizona, for some reason, our forecasting system, isn’t always the most accurate, I don’t know why no offense to any forecaster or weather people out there, but, you know, we don’t seem to have gotten on that page yet, but it, it, I mean, would you carry an umbrella for 20%?
Ron Reigns:
Oh, good. No.
Ron Reigns:
Of course not.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And, so rather than focusing on the fact that there’s a 20% chance and, granted comparing rain to an adoption, I get it. It’s not the same at all, but when you really want to crunch numbers, put the numbers in perspective. And rather than, you know, we have families that, that also want to scrutinize the numbers about the disruptions and this and that. And we’re happy to go through that, but I would recommend to families when you are signing an adoption contract and you are choosing an adoption agency on the forefront, go over the numbers then because the numbers don’t change. If the adoption doesn’t have a positive outcome. What I have found is that families will either be so excited to commit into the program and sign the contract. And even though you have to initial at the bottom of every page saying that you’ve read the page and we go over it with you, they’re here, baby, family.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And you know, they’re ready to go. If it’s going to be a point of contention, if this does not have a happy ending, I think that’s something that you need to understand on the forefront. Do I think that needs to be a primary focus? No. Like I said, depending on which agency you go with and, and the success of their placements obviously will determine how much effort you want to put in, in the, just in case plan, this plan B you know, the backup plan.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But I think that it is important to understand that, you know, we get families that have come from other agencies that have had an adoption disruption, and we don’t want them to cast a shadow over the experience they’re having now, because they have had a disruption. You know, we don’t want them to have any less of a, of a positive of experience, even though they’ve ridden the roller coaster before. We want them, to let that go and be present, be mindful for themselves and for the, the birth mom, because if they’d had, you know, an experience that was jaded in the past, that was in the past, and this is a new experience, so a new rollercoaster.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so they need to go onto it with new hopes and new dreams.
Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112 that’s 6236954112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website @AZpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website birthmothermatterspodcast.com tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry I’m Ron Reigns.
