Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.
Speaker 3:
And, I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.
Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.
Speaker 5:
All I can think about was needing to save my son.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency helping women who are pregnant and need help,The Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns:
And, I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
Ron Reigns:
Today, on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, we’ll be discussing some sensitive issues that may not be suitable for younger children. The CDC defines sexual violence as a sexual activity when consent is not obtained or not freely given. It is a serious public health problem in the United States. Sexual violence impacts every community and affects people of all genders, sexual orientations and ages as well as women who are pregnant and need help. Anyone can experience or perpetrate sexual violence. The perpetrator of sexual violence is usually someone known to the victim such as a friend, current or former intimate partner, coworker, neighbor or family member.
Ron Reigns:
Every 73 seconds, an American is sexually assaulted and every nine minutes, that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only five out of every 1,000 perpetrators will end up in prison. One out of every six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. And, nine out of 10 victims are female.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, today we’re going to be talking about sexual violence and its impact on women who are pregnant and need help as well as adoption. Sex trafficking is a type of human trafficking which also falls underneath the category of sexual violence. It’s one of the types, as we just learned, of sexual violence. We’re not going to focus on the topic of human trafficking today because there is so much to discuss in and of itself regarding other aspects of sexual violence [inaudible 00:02:45] that way we can make that its own podcast because that is such a huge and prevalent issue that we see, women who are pregnant and need help in the adoption world.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
According to the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000, sex trafficking is defined as the recruitment, harboring, transportation, provision, obtaining, patronizing or soliciting of a person for the purpose of a commercial sex act. It involves the use of fraud, force, coercion, to make an adult engage in commercial sex acts.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, because we are talking about women who are pregnant and need help and adoption, which we get to by the course of pregnancy, which… Why we get… You know, we… To get to pregnancy, there has to be a sexual act.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Therefore, adoption is impacted, affected, by so many good aspects and so many bad aspects of how we got from point A all the way to point Z, point Z being a finalized adoption. And so, what we’re looking at is the pre-stage of before birth mother actually gets pregnant, what some birth mothers have endured in their lifetime or even during the act which resulted in a woman pregnant and need help a pregnancy which resulted in the adoption.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, in looking at that whole scope, I will say that in speaking with birth mothers for the past 16 years, I do hear stories of sex trafficking. I do hear stories of women that have been sexually abused and raped, and it is, to this day, an exceedingly, as it should be, sensitive subject.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
[inaudible 00:04:45] Many, many women have a very difficult time talking about it and I think that part of that is when you’re talking about an experience that you’ve had, in a lot of aspects, you’re re-living that even through your mind, going through the details of what happened. And, another aspect of some women not wanting to talk about it can be [inaudible 00:05:09] from they’re afraid that they’re not going to be believed or they’re afraid that they’re going to be made to think that it was partly their fault or they’re going to be made to believe that, yeah, they did something wrong. And, that’s really hard because as society has become more educated, stereotypes and the way that some things are looked at, there’s not enough attention, awareness, brought… It’s not as caught up as we are in the education part. So, we’ve got to catch up.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And, make sure that these women who are pregnant and need help feel supported. I know that personally when I have spoken with women who are pregnant and need help, about a situation such as rape, it takes a long time for them to kind of warm up in the conversation and be comfortable talking about what happened. And so, as we go through this podcast, we understand that sitting here and talking about something that is a horrific crime against a woman or even a man… We’re talking about it because we want to spread awareness and we’re not being cavalier or we’re not, you know, just talking about it as an entity. We do have as much compassion and empathy for anybody who’s had to go through this.
Ron Reigns:
And, while it is hard to talk about, I mean, the numbers are unbelievable. Nearly three million women in the United States experience a rape-related pregnancy during their lifetime, and I’m sure you deal with quite a few of those.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We do. We do. One of the main issues that I see that I wish was different is a lot of women who are pregnant and need help , do not report rape to the authorities.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They… Again, fear of judgment, retaliation. They’re afraid of what will happen if they’ve been threatened by the perpetrator. And so, it is… It’s very hard to get them to feel safe so that they will report it because I think if we could have accurate numbers of what is really happening, I think maybe then legislation would change and we would look at this differently and it would become more of a hot topic and more… And… And, it would gather more attention and people would fight for people who are victims, both women and men. Almost three million women. That’s a lot of women. A lot of women.
Ron Reigns:
And, like you say, that three million is probably under-reported. It could be twice that or who knows, more.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Absolutely. One other aspect that I found so sad was that women who are pregnant and need help , have been raped by an intimate partner who reported having a rape-related pregnancy were significantly more likely to have experienced reproductive coercion compared to women who are raped by an intimate partner but did not become pregnant, and that’s reported by the CDC.
Ron Reigns:
So, now, what does that mean? Reproductive coercion. Does that mean being coerced into having an abortion or having the baby or…?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Reproductive coercion is a form of sexual violence that involves exerting power and control over reproduction through interference with contraceptive use and pregnancy pressure. So, the biggest issue is not only was this woman a victim of rape, but then she was repeatedly victimized through not only the possibility of additional rapes but other areas surrounding contraceptive use and pregnancy. So, again, this is just showing us that women matter and as do men. But, we need to pay attention to what’s going on in our society. And, yes. These very women are, many times, the women that walk through an adoption agency’s door. These are the women that have pushed past the idea of getting an abortion and are choosing adoption, even though they’re dealing with all of the mental issues and depression and all of these mixed emotions that come having been a victim.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
What was really interesting is in 2000, Elliott Institute study published some findings that nearly 80% of women who aborted their children after rape reported that the abortion was the wrong solution and that it only increased their trauma. None of the women who gave birth to a child conceived [inaudible 00:09:59] according to this study expressed regret or wished they had aborted instead. That speaks volumes.
Ron Reigns:
That is powerful.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That is powerful. It goes on to also state… And, this is really important and if our listeners hear anything in this podcast or remember anything, this is the one thing I want you to remember. The Elliott Institute study also states that 43% of rape victims who aborted their children reported being pressured or strongly directed by family members or health care professionals. In almost every case where a minor victim had an abortion, the girl’s parents or the perpetrator made arrangements for the abortion. In several cases, the abortion was carried out against the victim’s expressed wishes, and in a few cases, without her being aware that she was pregnant or that an abortion was taking place.
Ron Reigns:
That is shocking to me. I mean, didn’t even know. How? I can’t wrap my head around it.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And… And, again, this isn’t something from 1940 or 1960 or 1980. This study was published in 2000.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
This is… This is in the realm of current.
Ron Reigns:
Yeah. This is..
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So…
Ron Reigns:
The modern era. This is after the internet has been born.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. In learning this, I think it is tragic that we take somebody who’s been a victim and continue to victimize them. And, this would be another example of reproductive coercion because here, she’s pregnant and needs help and now coerced and forced to have an abortion, regardless of what her sentiments or feelings are.
Ron Reigns:
Right. Right. It’s amazing. Yeah. Now, she not only has the perpetrator of the original sin, the original crime. Now, she’s got family members and doctors victimizing her again, just like you said.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. According to personhood.org, the abortion industry has a track record of pressuring sexual assault victims to abort in covering for rapists and traffickers and who bring their victims to abortion facilities. I guess these are the facts that I don’t think the common layperson is aware of.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You know, when people are marching and chanting pro-life, it’s my uterus, it’s… You know, it’s my choice, it’s my, it’s my, it’s my.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Who are you fighting for?
Ron Reigns:
Certainly not the child.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. And, with these statistics, are you really fighting for the mother?
Ron Reigns:
No, because it hurts everybody involved.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Again, none of the women who gave birth to a child conceived in rape expressed regret or wished they’d had an abortion instead.
Ron Reigns:
I can understand a woman who’s been raped not wanting to raise that child. I understand that. There’s a lot of pain associated with it. But, that’s, again, where adoption comes in.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.
Ron Reigns:
And, it’s so often the forgotten option when it comes to this.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Agreed. When nearly 80% of the women who aborted their children after rape reported that abortion was the wrong solution and it only increased their trauma, this is where we need to really look at what messages we’re giving people.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And, we talked about this over and over again during our podcast, that abortion is not the answer. We’re seeing that over and over again. I actually worked with a woman this week and in speaking with her, she stated that she had had an abortion at a very young age.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And, regardless of what had happened to her during the rest of her life, she would never, ever, ever have another abortion. And, it wasn’t the quick fix that she thought it was. It wasn’t the answer. And, she was very young and one of the things that she said that I will always remember is that she had had a family member who had had a baby a couple months after she had had an abortion and that made the pain of her choice so incredibly difficult.
Ron Reigns:
It just magnified it.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It did. And, when we hear from women who’ve had an abortion and they come out and they say, “Look, this traumatized me. This… This was not the answer.” The more women that find that courage to speak up and say, “Hey, don’t make the same choice I made. You’re going to regret it. This isn’t the right choice. I wish I hadn’t done this,” I feel that people will look more towards adoption or maybe reconsider parenting because if we have those two choices as options, whether parenting or adoption, and removed the abortion piece, I think that we would have a lot more people satisfied with their choices. I think sometimes people will come and say, “But adoption is a hard choice, too.” And, it is. It is a very hard choice. But, it’s a choice that you can live proudly with. You can… You can look somebody in the face and be proud.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And, if we support these women who are pregnant and need help and choose adoption, as a society, not just in the adoption community, and we look at it like the gift that it is, I really think that… That we will slowly start to change how things are viewed and maybe rather than being pro-choice being looked at it as being able to have the right to make the decision over your own body and being able to choose for you what is best, maybe we can start to understand that we’re talking about not just your life but somebody else’s life as well.
Ron Reigns:
You know, and actually, the way you put that, it made me really think about… Because, we do. We celebrate people who adopt children. We celebrate Madonna when she goes out there and adopts children and the Pitt-Jolies and everybody else and we celebrate that. But, all too often, that birth mother that is allowing this to happen and making this happen, she’s not a celebrity. You know? And so, we’re not giving them their due in the light of public opinion.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right, which is why Building Arizona Families, we started the campaign You Before Me.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Because they should be celebrities.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They should be honored and celebrated and revered and put on that pedestal because without them, so many couples wouldn’t be able to be parents and so many children wouldn’t have the opportunities that they do have because of adoption, like myself.
Ron Reigns:
Sure.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The opportunities that I was allowed and given because my mom made the choice of placing me for adoption. I think it’s just incredible and I really hope that this does make an impact. There was a study done by the Annals of Health Law in 2014 which states the prevalence of forced abortions is an especially disturbing trend in sex trafficking. Survivors who participated in a study said that they had significant contact with clinical treatment facilities, most commonly Planned Parenthood, while being trafficked. They also reported that the traffickers often chose Planned Parenthood to provide services because they didn’t ask any questions. No words, Ron?
Ron Reigns:
Absolutely no words. This… It’s tragic and it kind of takes my breath away, hearing it. And, I just re-read it to make sure I heard it right because logically it didn’t click in my head, you know?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.
Ron Reigns:
Yeah.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I do. I find it… I find it hard to conceptualize, understand, and I have four daughters.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And, you know, having four girls, it’s something that, as a mom, you always, you know, worry about. You know, with being sexually abused or you all… You always worry about it and you always keep your eye. I mean, obviously, like I’ve said before, on boys as well. But, when… When you do have girls, I think it is… Your protective instincts as a mom come out in that aspect, you know? And, it’s so hard. I have found that trying to explain, you know, when your children are little and as they’re growing up, the precautions they need to take and the safety and what they need to do to keep themselves safe and [crosstalk 00:18:45].
Ron Reigns:
Why they can’t just wander off on their own and enjoy the world like they should be able to.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. Right. And, yeah. Yeah, that’s hard. That’s hard. The other statistic that I really want to… I really want to look at is when a woman is raped and she chooses not to parent, there is unfortunately abortion as an option and then there is adoption and what is fascinating is according to the healthresearchfunding.org, fewer than one percent of all abortions take place because there has been rape or incest involved to create the pregnancy.
Ron Reigns:
And again, that number… I… I’ve heard it before, so it’s not surprising to me, but in a way it is surprising because if you listen to the other side of the argument, you would think that 90% are due to this.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.
Ron Reigns:
But it’s fewer than one percent and that’s staggering.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It is staggering. Up to 80… And then, they’re reporting that up to 85% of women who become pregnant through rape or incest choose to have their children.
Ron Reigns:
That’s a good start.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That is a good start. Again, these numbers are so tragic and as we’re talking about them and going through them, you know, I understand that we’re reading, you know, numbers off of a paper and discussing [inaudible 00:20:07].
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But the magnitude of what we’re reading and what this really says is… Yeah. It’s… It’s tragic. It’s tragic.
Ron Reigns:
Because each of these numbers essentially represents a human life, and they say about 32,000 pregnancies result from sexual assault and rape every year in the United States. Every year.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And, they go on to say that almost 70% of sexual assaults go unreported to law enforcement officials. So, we really don’t have an accurate number.
Ron Reigns:
Right. Again, it’s hard to be accurate when they are not reporting this.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In 2008, the Supreme Court of California upheld that pregnancy resulting from rape constitutes great bodily injury.
Ron Reigns:
Well, that’s an understatement.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
If you are in a domestic violent relationship and you are pregnant, that is a crime against two people. So, great bodily injury. I don’t know that that is significant enough. I wish that it was more.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think the main point in this podcast that I really want to get across is that women that are preg… That become pregnant through some form of sexual violence, whether it be rape or something else, sex trafficking, any one of the categories that fall underneath sexual violence, I really want it to be known that abortion is not your only choice.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s not, and…
Ron Reigns:
And, it’s very likely a choice you’re going to regret. Many women do. Most.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Many women do. And… And, really, if you could look at the situation, as hard as it is, and make a choice between parenting or adoption. studies are showing us that you may be happier with your choice long term. Also, as difficult as it is, by not reporting what happened to law enforcement, we’re not getting accurate numbers and without accurate numbers, we can’t continue to push legislation or bring more awareness or bring more… Educate more people. You know, encourage more studies.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Without the numbers being there. And, even if it feels like you’re being victimized again, you’re helping the woman behind you and every woman wants to, in their heart, make somebody else’s life better because of your own and, you know, whether that is carrying a baby to term and choosing adoption or whether that is going through the process of filing charges against your perpetrator so that one, maybe that perpetrator won’t be able to victimize somebody else. The numbers will be higher, so people will see that this is really a problem here in the United States and it will cause more attention to be drawn to it.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The more we talk about what’s really happening, the more people can do, and again, my heart goes out to each and every woman that has had to be a victim of sexual violence. But, know that babies that are the result of sexual violence are not tainted. They’re not damaged goods. They’re… They are beautiful human beings that deserve a shot at life just like anybody else and it’s unfortunate how they came into this world or how they were conceived, I should say. But, that doesn’t mean that it’s going to hamper their life in any way or they’re not going to go on to live a beautiful, amazing, productive life.
Ron Reigns:
If you or someone you know is the victim of sexual violence or pregnant and need help, please call the National Sexual Assault Hotline. It’s free, confidential and available 24 seven at 1-800-656-4673. That’s 1-800-656-HOPE. And, the National Human Trafficking Resource Center is a national anti-trafficking hotline and resource center that serves victims, survivors and the anti-trafficking community. You can call them at 1-888-373-7888 or text 233733.
Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy, or pregnant and need help, and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24 seven by phone or text at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.
Ron Reigns:
Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.
